{"id":260602,"date":"2025-03-17T13:25:18","date_gmt":"2025-03-17T13:25:18","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/2025\/03\/17\/hear-what-its-like-to-recover-from-depression-with-deep-brain-stimulation\/"},"modified":"2025-03-17T13:25:18","modified_gmt":"2025-03-17T13:25:18","slug":"hear-what-its-like-to-recover-from-depression-with-deep-brain-stimulation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/2025\/03\/17\/hear-what-its-like-to-recover-from-depression-with-deep-brain-stimulation\/","title":{"rendered":"Hear what it\u2019s like to recover from depression with deep brain stimulation"},"content":{"rendered":"<div style=\"text-align:center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/031225_TDE_ls_episode6_feat.jpg?fit=694%2C450&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"attachment-post-thumbnail size-post-thumbnail wp-post-image\" alt=\"Hear what it\u2019s like to recover from depression with deep brain stimulation\" title=\"Hear what it\u2019s like to recover from depression with deep brain stimulation\" \/><\/div> \r\n<br><br><div data-component=\"video-embed\">\n\t\t\t\t\n\n\n\n\n<p>In the sixth episode of The Deep End, we\u2019ll look to the future for Jon and his family and for DBS research. The research is pushing ahead, with a clinical trial of DBS for treatment-resistant depression that\u2019s just begun. The first volunteer for that study had DBS surgery in early February. You\u2019ll also hear about a before-and-after situation for Jon and Barbara, one that involves the evolving meaning of a beloved song.<\/p>\n\n\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Embed\" class=\"sn-responsive-iframe\" id=\"sn-responsive-iframe-48\" src=\"https:\/\/play.prx.org\/e?ge=prx_7947_e8602357-35b6-4aad-8daa-f84da36ebb02&amp;uf=https%3A%2F%2Fpublicfeeds.net%2Ff%2F7947%2Fthedeepend\" width=\"100%\" height=\"300\" layout=\"responsive\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"\">\n\t<\/iframe>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura Sanders:<\/strong> Previously on The Deep End.<\/p>\n\n\n<aside class=\"sn-conversion rich-text rich-text--with-sidebar\">\n<style><![CDATA[\n.email-conversion {\n  border: 1px solid #ffcccb;\n  color: white;\n  margin-top: 50px;\n  background-image: url(\"\/wp-content\/themes\/sciencenews\/client\/src\/images\/cta-module@2x.jpg\");\n  padding: 20px;\n  clear: both;\n}\n\n]]><\/style>\n\n\n\n                      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var(--zephr-typography-body-fallbackFont);--zf-container-maxWidth:440px;--zf-container-padding:20px;--zf-container-margin:20px auto;--zf-container-border:none;--zf-container-borderRadius:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderRadius) * 1px);--zf-container-color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);--zf-container-bgColor:var(--zephr-color-background-main, transparent);--zf-info-fontSize:14px;--zf-subtext-fontSize:12px;--zf-link-color:#6ba5e9;--zf-input-fontSize:var(--zf-root-fontSize);--zf-input-bgColor:var(--zephr-color-background-main, transparent);--zf-button-fontSize:calc(var(--zephr-button-fontSize, 16) * 1px);--zf-button-color:#fff;--zf-password-valid-color:#7bcb7f;--zf-password-invalid-color:#c4c4c4;--zf-payment-options-fontSize:var(--zf-subtext-fontSize);--zf-payment-options-color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);--zf-payment-options-bgColor:var(--zf-container-bgColor);--zf-payment-options-border:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderWidth) * 1px) solid var(--zephr-input-borderColor);--zf-payment-options-borderRadius:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderRadius) * 1px);--zf-payment-options-highlighted-color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);--zf-payment-options-highlighted-bgColor:var(--zephr-color-accent-main);--zf-payment-summary-fontSize:var(--zf-subtext-fontSize);--zf-payment-summary-color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);--zf-payment-summary-bgColor:var(--zf-input-bgColor);--zf-payment-summary-border:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderWidth) * 1px) solid var(--zephr-input-borderColor);--zf-payment-summary-borderRadius:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderRadius) * 1px);--zf-list-subscriptions-container-maxWidth:630px;--zf-list-subscriptions-container-padding:24px;--zf-list-subscriptions-section-padding:16px 0px;--zf-list-subscriptions-container-border:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderWidth) * 1px) solid var(--zephr-input-borderColor);--zf-list-subscriptions-container-borderRadius:calc(var(--zephr-input-borderRadius) * 1px);--zf-list-subscriptions-info-fontSize:var(--zf-info-fontSize)}.zephr-form.svelte-jjl1p8{color:var(--zf-container-color);margin:var(--zf-container-margin);font-size:var(--zf-root-fontSize);font-family:var(--zf-root-fontFamily)}.zephr-form *{box-sizing:border-box}:where(.zephr-form) button{text-transform:unset;overflow:visible;font-family:var(--zf-root-fontFamily, unset);font-size:var(--zf-root-fontSize, unset);line-height:unset;margin:unset;padding:unset;border:unset;background:unset;&:hover, &:focus-visible {\n            border: unset;\n            background: unset;\n        }}.zephr-form-disabled-div{pointer-events:none;opacity:0.8}.zephr-form-relative-container{position:relative}.zephr-form-flex-container{display:flex}.zephr-form-input-inner-button{cursor:pointer;position:absolute;top:50%;transform:translateY(-50%);right:5px;padding:10px 5px}.zephr-form-input-inner-text{color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);font-size:var(--zf-subtext-fontSize);font-weight:bold;font-family:var(--zf-root-fontFamily)}\n]]><\/style>\n                        \n                        <style><![CDATA[label {\n    display: none !important;\n}\n\n#coppa {\n    font-size: 10px;\n    font-weight: normal;\n    color: white;\n    padding: 10px;\n}\n\n#coppa>a {\n    color: white !important;\n}\n\n.zephr-form-button {\n    background-color: #d4441f !important;\n    text-transform: uppercase !important;\n    font-weight: 900 !important;\n    letter-spacing: 0.075em;\n    font-size: 1.2em !important;\n    border: 2px solid black !important;\n}\n\n.zephr-form {\n    border: 1px solid #ffcccb;\n    background-size: cover;\n    background-position: left top;\n    background-image:url(\"https:\/\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/11\/cta_background_webb-tarantula-neb.jpg\");\n    padding: 20px;\n    padding-top: 40px;\n}\n\n.zephr-form {\n    --zf-container-bgColor: none;\n    --zf-container-maxWidth: 900px;\n}\n\n.zephr-form-input {\n    font-size: 1.5rem !important;\n    font-family: monospace !important;\n    filter: drop-shadow(black .1rem .1rem 5px);\n}\n\n.zephr-form-error-message {\n    background-color:white; \n    padding:5px; \n    font-weight:bold\n}\n\n.zephr-form-input::placeholder {\n    font-family: \"Courier New\" !important;\n    color: #999 !important;\n}]]><\/style>\n                        \n                        \n<\/aside>\n\n\n<p><strong>Amanda:<\/strong> Like, I don\u2019t feel like it\u2019s, nothing I\u2019ve done has ever changed who I am or my personality. Like, I\u2019m still the same person. I\u2019m just suffering more or less.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> And so irritability for me was at like a six or a seven or an eight. Guess what? It\u2019s still at a six or a seven or an eight. And so, like, my perspective to them on that is it\u2019s not that the surgery didn\u2019t work. I guess I\u2019m just like a cranky middle-aged dude now, right? Like, that just is what it is.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Barbara:<\/strong> Yeah, like you can\u2019t say his old self. There\u2019s, he never, he never like wasn\u2019t himself through this whole process, right? So it\u2019s just, he is more comfortable and happy and relaxed and productive and present and engaged. So the things that the disease was trying to steal from him, he\u2019s getting back. There isn\u2019t that cloud hanging over us.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> So now, several years out from their surgeries, the volunteers I talked with are back to their lives. In today\u2019s episode, we\u2019re looking ahead too, to what\u2019s next for Jon and his family, and what\u2019s next for DBS. I\u2019m Laura Sanders, and this is The Deep End.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These days, the Nelson house is bright, full of light and laughter and kindness. When I visited, they kept offering me way too much coffee and they insisted on putting their cool lizard Lizzie on my arm. Jon also insisted on taking pictures of it so I could show my kids later. The Nelsons are having a good time.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Barbara:<\/strong> You have to laugh. You can\u2019t, you can\u2019t not laugh at this and or anything in my opinion. But my son, my middle son said to me after, right after, said, \u201cYou know, mom, if you\u2019re mad at dad, you can always hide the charger.\u201d I was like, \u201cOh dude. That\u2019s too far. That is too far.\u201d So yeah, we, we have a healthy sense of humor in our household, for sure. Like, we\u2019ll even joke, like, you know, we\u2019ll say something like, \u201cOh my God, you\u2019re crazy. I\u2019m like, no, you\u2019re, like, really crazy.\u201d But like, you know, so we like to joke about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><p>\n<div class=\"youtube-embed\" data-video_id=\"SwZWsi1-4eM\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Jon Nelson wants you to know how electricity saved his brain | Science News\" width=\"696\" height=\"392\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/SwZWsi1-4eM?feature=oembed&#038;enablejsapi=1\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/p><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Jon Nelson talks about life with DBS, and how the treatment brought him relief from his severe depression.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> This family jokes about hiding Jon\u2019s charger and changing his settings. It\u2019s all part of their routine busting on each other for all sorts of things.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When I was there, their middle son rated Jon a 10 out of 10 on the embarrassment scale. I won\u2019t even tell you what he rated his mom. They joked about how us old people don\u2019t understand slang like rizz, and no cap and stuff that slaps. Their youngest son stumped everyone with a riddle:\u00a0What\u2019s the only state that ends with a K? He didn\u2019t say and neither will I. So for now, the Nelsons aren\u2019t just looking ahead to better days. They\u2019re having them.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As I reflect on all the people who have talked with me for this story, I keep asking myself why. Why were they so generous with their time? Why did they choose to tell me, and now all of you, about some of the hardest moments in their lives? Barbara Nelson is a private person, but even so, she\u2019s been incredibly open about her family\u2019s struggles.<\/p>\n\n\n<aside class=\"sn-conversion rich-text rich-text--with-sidebar\">\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center wp-elements-27c40654034fbeecef6418d6adfe0794\" style=\"color:gray; margin-bottom:0px; font-size:.9rem;\">Sponsor Message<\/p>\n<!-- Tag ID: sciencenews-org_leaderboard_incontent -->\n\n<\/aside>\n\n\n<p><strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It never occurred to me not to. It never occurred to me not to share our story. And I\u2019m not like a super out-there person. Like, I\u2019m like, I\u2019m very open about things, but I\u2019m sort of private too. But I feel like because we know that so many people are struggling, that the more we talk about it, the better our society is. A hundred percent, this is a shift in the right direction. And I just think it\u2019s really helpful to hear as either a caregiver or if sharing my story helps a partner be more empathetic or stronger or more resilient when trying to help, then that\u2019s really good. Because if you can let go of all the armor and the importance of the appearance that everything\u2019s great and perfect and actually take those steps, you can get better. And your life doesn\u2019t fall apart. We don\u2019t have less friends because we told people the truth. We have more friends probably. So I think that is, I never thought about why I might be willing to share our story. So off the cuff, I think that that\u2019s why. Because your life can get better. I remember hearing somebody say once, \u201cYour secrets make you sick,\u201d and I never forgot that. And I think it\u2019s true.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Patient 001 has the same desire to let people know about his experiences, to demystify depression, to let people know that even in the bleakest times, there\u2019s hope.<\/p><p><strong>Patient 001: <\/strong>You\u2019re so frustrated because you\u2019re screaming out for<strong> <\/strong>help, and they just don\u2019t understand. I feel that\u2019s probably one of the reasons I\u2019m<strong> <\/strong>talking to you, even though I want to do it anonymously. I really,<strong> <\/strong>I hope one day one kid reads what you\u2019re writing and then he finds DBS and he\u2019s<strong> <\/strong>cured because that\u2019s what I did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Amanda shared a similar perspective.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Amanda: <\/strong>I think sharing my story is important, because it helps other people see the way. It\u2019s kind of like a flashlight for people who are still in the dark. Like, \u201cHere it is. I found it. Here\u2019s the way out.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Playing a role in this research was something that resonated with Amanda, too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Amanda: <\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s really meaningful to me. I feel like I\u2019m participating in something, that I\u2019m contributing to something that really matters. That someday, because of this study and because of other studies, is going to change the lives of other people in an incredibly profound way.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Amanda\u2019s life has changed. That\u2019s clear when she tells me about one of her drawings that she did after DBS.<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Amanda:<\/strong> But you know the song \u201cSomewhere Over the Rainbow?\u201d It always irritated me because I\u2019m like, \u201cThere is no \u201cSomewhere Over the Rainbow.\u201d It\u2019s a pipe dream, okay? Pretty song, but a pipe dream. And I was like, \u201cI found somewhere over the rainbow.\u201d And I was like, \u201cYou know what? I\u2019m going to build a house here.\u201d So I drew a picture of a rainbow and there\u2019s Cartoon Amanda and she has built a house on the rainbow. She\u2019s like peeking out the door.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> What\u2019s it, what\u2019s that place like, you know, if you could describe it, if you\u2019re, if so, okay, pretend you\u2019re showing me the picture and like, here\u2019s your house and what is that, what\u2019s that place? Like, what are the, what are the things about that place that make it over the rainbow?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Amanda:<\/strong> It\u2019s sunshine. So there\u2019s lightness and warmth and, and, and like literal lightness, like you\u2019re on a cloud. It sort of feels a little bit like that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> These outlooks make clear the importance of hope. Of a belief that things can get better. A hope that the science will get better too, that our understanding of depression will get better, that it won\u2019t be like this forever. Neurologist Helen Mayberg\u2019s first paper describing DBS for depression appeared in the journal <em>Neuron<\/em> in 2005. We\u2019re 20 years out from that. DBS is still in the research phase. It is not an FDA-approved treatment available to people who might benefit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><p>\n<div class=\"youtube-embed\" data-video_id=\"qc1v35kgJPs\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"\u2018I tried 21 antidepressants before deep brain stimulation\u2019 | Science News\" width=\"696\" height=\"392\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/qc1v35kgJPs?feature=oembed&#038;enablejsapi=1\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/p><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A loved one\u2019s depression affects their whole family. Barbara Nelson talks about how her husband\u2019s illness and recovery changed their family.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> It\u2019s that resignation of sorts that it isn\u2019t enough to do it, repeat it, follow people. It hasn\u2019t scaled.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> In its current form, DBS is not simple or easy, or even something that would be a good medical choice for a lot of people. That\u2019s what Mayberg means when she says it hasn\u2019t scaled. But science is often slow, and it almost never happens alone.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> As a scientist, as a doctor, it\u2019s not my job to save the world. It\u2019s my job to save the people that I can save. And if I can only do so much, to know what I can do and know what I can\u2019t do, but I can\u2019t do everything, and I can\u2019t take on that responsibility. That\u2019s hubris and narcissism that I\u2019d like to not claim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> As advanced as the science is, there are still big questions to answer. Like why does DBS seem to work for some people and not others? How specifically does it change the brain? A new clinical trial announced in September of last year may help answer some of these questions. The medical technology company Abbott is funding a study that will include a hundred people with treatment-resistant depression. They\u2019ll be recruited from all around the United States. All of these volunteers will get DBS. For the first year, half of these volunteers will have electricity flowing, and the other half won\u2019t. And at the end of the trial, all of these volunteers will have the option of turning it on. The study has already started. On February 6th, a brain surgeon at Mount Sinai implanted a DBS device into the brain of the very first volunteer. This new clinical trial will hopefully clarify more about DBS and who it might work for. That\u2019s the question that Mayberg wants answered.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> The variance is in human beings. The variance is who the person is that develops the depression. And everyone is different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> One of the things scientists are looking for are markers, ways to tell when someone is having a bad day or actually relapsing. Jon and Amanda are participating in follow-up studies, searching for signs of recovery in their brains. Scientists are looking for these signals in their body language and facial expressions, and even in their voices. In one part of the experiment, Jon spent eight minutes twice a day recording his brainwaves, along with video journals and daily, weekly, and monthly surveys. From data like Jon\u2019s, Mayberg and her colleagues just described one such hallmark in the brains of six people who underwent DBS for depression. A collection of changes in brain behavior can indicate when a person has recovered. It\u2019s a small study, but it\u2019s progress, and here\u2019s the thing, a deeper understanding of what\u2019s going on in DBS could also point to the next kind of treatment. And that next, better thing might not even be DBS.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> I\u2019d like to spend my time trying to understand the biology of what we did, because it\u2019d be a whole lot better if you didn\u2019t need brain surgery and an implant. And I\u2019m not the one to build a new contraption or miniaturize it or make it Bluetooth compatible. That\u2019s for engineers and you have to have users to build more elaborate machines.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Changing the behavior of neurons deep down in the brain from outside of the skull, it\u2019s a very, very hard thing to do. Scientists are trying to figure out how to do this without brain surgery. They\u2019re using electricity, light, ultrasounds, and magnets to get signals into the brain from outside of the head. Other approaches are miniaturizing the parts that do go inside the brain and coming up with easier ways to get them in there. One method, for instance, relies on these collapsible electrode grids that can be threaded up into the brain through the jugular vein in the neck. It\u2019s wild.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>These approaches all have their drawbacks, but technology is always getting better. Just think about the first heart pacemaker. It was an incredible piece of technology, but it was giant and clunky. Today, the powerful device can be smaller than a matchbook, and it sits near millions of people\u2019s hearts, keeping them beating as they live their lives. The goal with DBS is similar: small, simple, seamless. For now, Mayberg says she\u2019s in \u201crealistic\u201d mode, trying to find out what\u2019s going to work for the most people. And getting there is a group effort.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> And patients like Jon and Amanda and Emily, they\u2019re our teachers. They\u2019re our mentors. They\u2019re our collaborators. The most fun part of this as a clinician is to have the patients focus my attention, to figure out what they\u2019re saying. And then to actually get their feedback afterwards, there\u2019s not even words to describe that gift.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> As Mayberg reflects on her career, she\u2019s philosophical about what she and her colleagues have done and what\u2019s left to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mayberg:<\/strong> This, this is never where I expected to be. But you\u2019re here, so step up.\u00a0 Why wouldn\u2019t you step up? This is the experiment of a lifetime, you know? It\u2019s even, if you, if right the second after this call I had to stop, I wouldn\u2019t trade it for one second, but I\u2019d sure like to see the last inning, right? And we\u2019re all in, I\u2019m all in.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><p>\n<div class=\"youtube-embed\" data-video_id=\"ATQrx4FcNIA\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Depression &amp; DBS doesn\u2019t just impact patients | Science News\" width=\"696\" height=\"392\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/ATQrx4FcNIA?feature=oembed&#038;enablejsapi=1\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe><\/div>\n<\/p><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Amanda\u2019s treatment-resistant form of depression left her unable to experience simple pleasures. After DBS, she began to enjoy the smell of candles.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>The Nelsons are in a better place now. Their place is full of laughter, jokes, teasing, but in a nice way.\u00a0There\u2019s a lightness to them, like Amanda\u2019s house over the rainbow. When I was visiting, their youngest son was twirling and gliding through the kitchen on inline skates, going around the loop. He made it two full loops before Barbara kicked him out. The Nelson house is full of hope for a future that\u2019s better than the past. Here\u2019s Barbara.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Barbara:<\/strong> It just feels good to just be now. I\u2019m really happy at the job I\u2019m in. I\u2019m excited about traveling and spending more time with family and friends. And that\u2019s really what my focus is right now, and not trying to, like, advance in my career or have more. I just actually want less and just to like, there\u2019s just this like sense of, like I say a lot, like, nothing really bothers me anymore. Like, there\u2019s really very little that will, like, get under my skin, because I\u2019m just so grateful for every moment. And when he had this surgery, I felt like, over those first few months was like, I don\u2019t know how this is going to end up, but we got this. Like, we got this happy time. And even if that\u2019s all we get, even if it was three months or six months of relief, that\u2019s good. That\u2019s cool. I\u2019ll take that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> After his surgery, Jon sent Helen Mayberg an email that he shared with me. It was mostly a note to thank her for her work, for saving his life. But he told her about a before-and-after situation. Years ago, he was away at an inpatient treatment facility. And he and Barbara would both listen to this one song, \u201cAmsterdam\u201d by Coldplay. He read me the email.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I could relate to it well to my situation, pre-surgery, about fading away, losing my mojo and just overall sadness, debilitating sadness. The sadness was warming and relatable to me, though. It wasn\u2019t a negative thing when I was sick.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>He could feel the pain and the rawness in the song, and it made him feel his feelings. Not in a bad way, but in a meaningful way. Now, after the surgery, after DBS, the song has changed for him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> I now still listen to it a bunch and it\u2019s changed into being about the joy of fighting through it all and coming out truly alive on the other side. It still captivates me, but with a new meaning and focus. Give it a listen. It\u2019s a beautiful song. Much love to all. Thank you for caring. Jon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> That change, that shift in perspective, that shift in his life, didn\u2019t just happen to Jon. It happened to his whole family. With three kids and a packed schedule, Jon spends a lot of time in the car, shuttling kids to and from softball and field hockey, golf, basketball, ice hockey. On one of these drives, Jon and his youngest son were talking. He is still the emotional one. The kid who would crawl back up into Barbara\u2019s womb if he could. Jon\u2019s joke, not mine. He\u2019s the one who gets deep.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> My son, you know, driving home the other day from hockey, I always, I always call it car talk with my, my families that I coach. I\u2019m like, \u201cGuys, when car talk with the kids, emphasize these points for the game or this or that.\u201d And he just gets, I mean, we\u2019re in the car all the time because of hockey. But he was just like, \u201cDad, you know, like I, I\u2019m so happy you just kept fighting for us.\u201d Like, just these little comments that come out of nowhere. Like, oh my God, like, obviously they get it. They understand it. And it\u2019s just a trip.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> We\u2019re considering a bonus episode that addresses your questions, comments, and thoughts. Please send them to us at podcasts@sciencenews.org. If you or someone you know is facing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>As we wrap up, I want to say a giant thank you to Jon, Barbara, Amanda, Emily and Patient 001. Thank you for talking with me and thank you for sharing your stories. Your perspectives opened a window into a world that a lot of us just look right past. Also, thank you for being so funny. I can honestly say that I didn\u2019t expect to laugh so much reporting a story about depression.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We\u2019re also grateful to the talented people behind the scenes that made this podcast possible. Beth Quill helped get this project off the ground. Luke Groskin made some amazing videos with Jon, Amanda and Barbara that you can watch on our YouTube channel. You can also find transcripts and photos at our website\u00a0sciencenews.org. We\u2019ll put the links in show notes. Our colleague Nikk Ogasa lent his voice to Patient 001. Abby Wallace and Mandana Tadayon ran our social media. Stephanie Kuo and Mike Russo from PRX guided us at every step along the way. Many scientists and clinicians, including Helen Mayberg and Shannon O\u2019Neill, generously lent their expertise. We couldn\u2019t have done it without you all. And finally, thank you for listening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is The Deep End. I\u2019m Laura Sanders. If you liked this podcast, tell your friends or leave us a review. It helps the show a lot. Send us your questions and comments at podcasts @sciencenews.org. The Deep End is a production of Science News. It\u2019s based on original reporting by me, Laura Sanders. This episode was produced by Helen Thompson and mixed by Ella Rowen. Our project manager is Ashley Yeager. Nancy Shute is our editor in chief. Our music is by Blue Dot Sessions. The podcast is made possible in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the John S. James L. Knight Foundation, and the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, with support from PRX.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<h4 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode 6 credits<\/h4>\n\n\n\n<p><em>Host, reporter and writer: Laura Sanders<br\/>Producer: Helen Thompson<br\/>Mixer: Ella Rowen<br\/>Sound design: Ella Rowen and Helen Thompson\u00a0<br\/>Project manager: Ashley Yeager<\/em><br\/><em>Show art: Neil Webb<br\/>Music: Blue Dot Sessions, \u201cAmsterdam\u201d by Coldplay, \u201cOver the Rainbow\u201d by Instrumental City<br\/>Sound effects: Epidemic Sound, Mayfield Brain &amp; Spine<br\/>Additional audio: Luke Groskin<br\/>Voice of Patient 001: Nikk Ogasa<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><em>This podcast was produced with support from PRX, the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, and the Burroughs Wellcome Fund.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n<br>\r\n<br><a href=\"https:\/\/www.sciencenews.org\/article\/recover-depression-brain-stimulation\">Source link <\/a>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In the sixth episode of The Deep End, we\u2019ll look to the future for Jon and his family and for DBS research. The research is pushing ahead, with a clinical trial of DBS for treatment-resistant depression that\u2019s just begun. The first volunteer for that study had DBS surgery in early February. You\u2019ll also hear about [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":260603,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"tdm_status":"","tdm_grid_status":"","fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/031225_TDE_ls_episode6_feat.jpg?fit=694%2C450&ssl=1","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[606],"tags":[1920,2481,8288,1626,7543,138590],"amp_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/260602"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=260602"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/260602\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":260604,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/260602\/revisions\/260604"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/260603"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=260602"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=260602"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=260602"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}