{"id":265590,"date":"2025-03-24T13:44:06","date_gmt":"2025-03-24T13:44:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/2025\/03\/24\/a-deep-brain-stimulation-volunteer-discusses-life-after-depression\/"},"modified":"2025-03-24T13:44:06","modified_gmt":"2025-03-24T13:44:06","slug":"a-deep-brain-stimulation-volunteer-discusses-life-after-depression","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/2025\/03\/24\/a-deep-brain-stimulation-volunteer-discusses-life-after-depression\/","title":{"rendered":"A deep brain stimulation volunteer discusses life after depression"},"content":{"rendered":"<div style=\"text-align:center\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/032025_TDE_bonusepisode_feat.jpg?fit=800%2C450&amp;ssl=1\" class=\"attachment-post-thumbnail size-post-thumbnail wp-post-image\" alt=\"A deep brain stimulation volunteer discusses life after depression\" title=\"A deep brain stimulation volunteer discusses life after depression\" \/><\/div> \r\n<br><br><div data-component=\"video-embed\">\n\t\t\t\t\n\n\n\n\n<p>In this bonus episode of The Deep End, listen to an interview with Jon Nelson. He\u2019ll share how he\u2019s doing these days, now that his depression is gone. You\u2019ll hear about the work still ahead of him, which may be lifelong. And you\u2019ll hear about his plans for the future.\u00a0<\/p>\n\n\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Embed\" class=\"sn-responsive-iframe\" id=\"sn-responsive-iframe-48\" src=\"https:\/\/play.prx.org\/e?ge=prx_7947_13820d4a-baa8-442a-b321-d60af047b947&amp;uf=https%3A%2F%2Fpublicfeeds.net%2Ff%2F7947%2Fthedeepend\" width=\"100%\" height=\"300\" layout=\"responsive\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"\">\n\t<\/iframe>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Laura Sanders: <\/strong>This podcast deals with mental illness, depression and suicide. Please listen with care.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Hi listeners, we\u2019re dropping into your feeds this week with a special bonus episode of The Deep End. Over the last six episodes, you\u2019ve heard about some of the hardest parts of Jon Nelson\u2019s life. And some of the best parts too. He\u2019s struggled through severe depression. He volunteered for an experimental treatment that involved brain implants, and now he\u2019s relearning how to live. For this bonus episode, we\u2019re going to check in with Jon and see how he\u2019s doing these days. You\u2019ll hear more from him about what it was like to go through severe depression, and what it\u2019s like now that he\u2019s out from under it, now that he\u2019s living what he calls his bonus life. Welcome to The Deep End. 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5px}.zephr-form-input-inner-text{color:var(--zephr-color-text-main);font-size:var(--zf-subtext-fontSize);font-weight:bold;font-family:var(--zf-root-fontFamily)}\n]]><\/style>\n                        \n                        <style><![CDATA[label {\n    display: none !important;\n}\n\n#coppa {\n    font-size: 10px;\n    font-weight: normal;\n    color: white;\n    padding: 10px;\n}\n\n#coppa>a {\n    color: white !important;\n}\n\n.zephr-form-button {\n    background-color: #d4441f !important;\n    text-transform: uppercase !important;\n    font-weight: 900 !important;\n    letter-spacing: 0.075em;\n    font-size: 1.2em !important;\n    border: 2px solid black !important;\n}\n\n.zephr-form {\n    border: 1px solid #ffcccb;\n    background-size: cover;\n    background-position: left top;\n    background-image:url(\"https:\/\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/11\/cta_background_webb-tarantula-neb.jpg\");\n    padding: 20px;\n    padding-top: 40px;\n}\n\n.zephr-form {\n    --zf-container-bgColor: none;\n    --zf-container-maxWidth: 900px;\n}\n\n.zephr-form-input {\n    font-size: 1.5rem !important;\n    font-family: monospace !important;\n    filter: drop-shadow(black .1rem .1rem 5px);\n}\n\n.zephr-form-error-message {\n    background-color:white; \n    padding:5px; \n    font-weight:bold\n}\n\n.zephr-form-input::placeholder {\n    font-family: \"Courier New\" !important;\n    color: #999 !important;\n}]]><\/style>\n                        \n                        \n<\/aside>\n\n\n<p>I called Jon in December of 2024, over two years out from his surgery. Here are parts of our conversation, including the part where he tells me that he\u2019s become friends with another person you might remember from the podcast, Amanda, the artist in New York City who had DBS surgery, too. Take a listen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Hi, Jon.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> How is life? How you doing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Good. I\u2019m doing really well. How about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I am too. I, a lot of, lot of stuff going on. My one colleagues says, a lot of momentum. I\u2019ll take momentum. Momentum is a good term.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Oh my, yes. Thank you for talking to me again. Are you tired of me yet?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> No, man, I\u2019m, I\u2019m all in, all the time. Your family OK? You guys doing OK?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah, we\u2019re all good. We\u2019re in the Christmas, you know, mayhem crash landing into the new year. How about you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> It\u2019s like, I just like Thanksgiving so much more, so less pressure, you know what I mean? It\u2019s like, the planning for a month for five minutes of opening gifts to like the crash, you know. Holidays are hard. I\u2019m one of those where they\u2019re hard for me, so it\u2019s, they\u2019re less hard than they used to be, but still not like my favorite time of year.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I\u2019ve become super close friends with Amanda, who I saw for that video after mine, and I reached out to Figee, and was like, \u201cYo, I was like, send my information to her.\u201d And dude, immediately, she reached out and we\u2019ve become, we\u2019ve come tight.\u00a0I may have told you this, but I, she ended up sending me her artwork. I was like, \u201cDude, can I get some of your artwork?\u201d And, she sent me the high-res PDFs so I have it in like all my kids\u2019 bedrooms. <\/p>\n\n\n<aside class=\"sn-conversion rich-text rich-text--with-sidebar\">\n<p class=\"has-text-align-center wp-elements-27c40654034fbeecef6418d6adfe0794\" style=\"color:gray; margin-bottom:0px; font-size:.9rem;\">Sponsor Message<\/p>\n<!-- Tag ID: sciencenews-org_leaderboard_incontent -->\n\n<\/aside>\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>That\u2019s awesome. Which ones do you have in there?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>The subway one is like my favorite, so that\u2019s in my musicians, kids\u2019 room and one of them with the heart, it\u2019s Amanda with the heart, is in my other kid\u2019s room, and the third one is blanking me right now, but, dude, they\u2019re just beautiful, like every one I see, and then she did, did you know she did a DBS book? Like how incredible is that? Like, it\u2019s just so neat, you know, that just. I love creativity. I love people with passion and creativity, and you can\u2019t beat that with her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Yeah, yeah. I mean, she, she sent that book and we used a few of the drawings to illustrate the, the new, the online version of this story, and it just like got me. You know, you can describe it in words and you can even hear her talking about it, but then seeing the way she kind of puts these colors together and like, designs it all, it\u2019s gorgeous.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>We do like a monthly support group I started three years ago and, you can just tell, I can tell with every person, like their posture, their skin complexion, their, how animated they are. I know exactly where they are.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah. Is it Zoom? You meet on Zoom?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yep. It\u2019s actually, well, it\u2019s a Google Meet, but yeah, it\u2019s web conference and it started from my first article that I did about three years ago, actually three years ago now, it was December 2nd, 2021. That\u2019s weird. That was, yeah, three years ago. And that\u2019s, I just had so many people reach out to me that were similar situations, high functioning folks, suffering through hell. And so that was kind of the goal was, you know, kind of a high-functioning mental health support group of people, like-minded folks who are in theory, what people think is hiding it, where we are not hiding it, but we are struggling and it\u2019s been great. Just like sometimes two people join, sometimes 15 people join, you know, it\u2019s just each month is different and it\u2019s been really cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> What kind of things do you talk about?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>So in that support group, it\u2019s check-ins. It\u2019s where, where are you at right now? What\u2019s, what\u2019s changed? What\u2019s, where\u2019s your mind? Situational stuff, you know. Guys, how would you move forward with this? Which, you know, relatability. It\u2019s just all peer-based support and with zero intent or goal other than to be around like-minded people and be able to get as, as, as healthy as we can.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And just, you know, when you\u2019re dealing with a condition like we deal with, you know, being able to be around people who understand the hell and who also understand the stupidity of society for stigmatizing us, it\u2019s a really wonderful thing to feel quote unquote normal for a half a second.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, it makes a ton of sense. And now, if you don\u2019t mind, I\u2019ll shift into kind of the same question for you, you know, Where, where are you right now? How are you doing?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> So right now, I am just over two years from my surgery date. So I\u2019ve been in remission for two years of this maniacally horrific disease. That does not mean that it is simple. It is easy. It\u2019s the exact opposite of that. I still have to work on it daily. I still have to be, maintain my, you know, try to keep my mood as neutral as it possibly can be.\u00a0And, you know, one of the main things that I would say is, you know, Dr.\u00a0Mayberg telling me that I needed to rehab my brain, and I didn\u2019t understand what that meant. And, you know, learning how to deal with sadness and kind of, have that being part of my life is extremely triggering for me still to this day. And I, you know, I went into the surgery, you know, hoping I would die. And, you know, coming out of it not dead, and coming out of it in remission from this disease is like winning the lottery. It wasn\u2019t even something that I thought was plausible. And so to come out of it and be disease free, is, is still earth-shattering to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>But then I never would have thought that you take it one step further. And I am dealing with trauma. You know, I\u2019m dealing with trauma from living in hell for as long as I did. And being an empath, being a middle child, being an emotional person, which I know is shocking to say as a dude, but that\u2019s what I am. And so to have your emotions completely pulverized and twisted and tortured for a decade, you know, you truly focus in on, on all aspects. And so I have to learn how to live with something that is part of my life for the rest of my life, which is being sad. And so being sad is an absolute normal human emotion. And sadness, anger, happiness, like they all happen and they come into your body and they leave your body. And so, I know that it\u2019s going to leave, but guess what? My analogy would be, you know, an alcoholic who has to, every once in a while, take a very, very large sip of alcohol, of wine. It would be very challenging for them to deal with that. It\u2019s the exact same scenario that I have. I still have to feel sadness. And so it\u2019s actually been very helpful for me too, in trying to explain to people the hell of this disease is we all have to experience human emotions. It\u2019s the cycle of life. The disease of severe depression is, you take that, you take that emotion of general sadness, maybe it\u2019s at a three out of 10, 10 being death. And it\u2019s doubled, it\u2019s tripled, and it never leaves your body. So those bad moments that you have, imagine multiplying them by, you know, two, three, four, five, and it never leaves your body. And the only thing consistent that you have is every day it gets a little worse. That\u2019s what it\u2019s like to deal with severe depression in a treatment-resistant form. And so add that feeling and thought onto an additional flame of society being stupid and judging and blaming and ostracizing millions of people for having this condition that nobody has asked for just like every other disease. That\u2019s why everyone dies. That\u2019s why everybody suffers. And it\u2019s that simple. And so to think that I can go through this and prove to the world that this is a biological disease, I just have a circuit off of my brain. I have 23 million pulses going into my brain, every day. If I do not have that electricity, I go immediately back into this maniacally horrific disease.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so the fact that society judges, labels, blames, ostracizes me and millions of other people for something that we did not ask for is the reason that healthcare costs for this disease and all the other comorbid conditions exist. It\u2019s because of the stupidity of society for blaming, labeling, judging, ostracizing for a disease that we didn\u2019t ask for. You look at cancer, there is communal love, support, a hug. And that\u2019s exactly how it should be. It\u2019s beautiful. Like, let\u2019s take care of you, your family. We feel sorry for you. The exact opposite is serious mental illness. That\u2019s the problem. That\u2019s why everybody suffers and dies.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah, I, I remember you telling me it\u2019s a non-casserole disease, and that really struck me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> It is a one hundred percent non-casserole disease. Everybody lines up, everybody, everybody goes over to the person\u2019s house who\u2019s suffering from cancer. Meals are coordinated every single day. People are driving folks down for therapy and treatment. It\u2019s beautiful. It\u2019s the best part of humanity, and you could not get a more further from reality situation than serious mental illness, and it\u2019s absolutely appalling to me. It\u2019s unjust and it\u2019s right in everybody\u2019s face on why everybody suffers and dies. And people just continue to do it. So that\u2019s my mission for the rest of my life is to poke society, to let them know that their behavior is absolutely directly responsible for suffering and death.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> You described your depression as feeling like a poison in your body. Do you feel that poison anymore?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> So my depression, the feeling that I had is, my two biggest symptoms before going into surgery were a constant desire for death, euphoria to die. I wouldn\u2019t, I\u2019d thought about suicidal ideation as much as I was breathing. I mean, it was that pervasive and consistent in my life. And so that\u2019s my mind portion of it. And then my second portion of it was exactly what you said, physically ravaged my body. And so to explain that to you, think about the feeling that you get, the full-body sensation feeling you get when you have a fever, right? You have the aches, you have the shakes, you have the, it\u2019s just pure discomfort, right? Like this is awful. So take that feeling, that same physical overwhelming feeling, and it\u2019s just death and dread, just circulating through my body. Like I could feel it in my fingertips. I could feel it everywhere. And so to wake up from the surgery, and they turn the device on, and both of those are gone, immediately, like gone. It\u2019s still surreal to this day. And so when I think about the before and afters, I, I, there was just so many. I mean, one of them that is just so vivid to me is I got this massive tattoo before my surgery on my left arm. I\u2019ve never gotten a tattoo. I wanted to kind of, you know, do something to, I don\u2019t know if the right word is commemorate, memorialize. I don\u2019t even know what it is. I guess symbolically, you know, represent my fight through this hell. And so I just, a big nature scene on my left arm, and that\u2019s because being out in nature, specifically around trees, you know, reduces symptoms of depression. So I was like, all right, let\u2019s bring it here. I didn\u2019t feel it. You know, they put, they took four days to get this thing on. And I didn\u2019t feel it. It wasn\u2019t pleasant. It wasn\u2019t unpleasant. It was just there. And I had to go back and get it touched up after my surgery, and I had to have her stop multiple times, cause I could feel again in my body. I could actually feel something other than the hell of this horrific disease. And so that\u2019s an absolute perfect example.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> I wonder if there are any surprises that have come out of all of this. After going through the run-up to the surgery, the surgery itself, kind of this rehab portion. Were there any unexpected changes or anything that happened that surprised you?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> For sure. I think that I very quickly learned that I\u2019m living a bonus life. And it\u2019s a lot of fun living a bonus life, because things that you typically would say, wouldn\u2019t say or you would think, but I don\u2019t know if I should say this or do this, I fully embrace those moments, you know? I fully embrace them, and I say what most people wouldn\u2019t. And that\u2019s mostly positive. That\u2019s some negative, and I enjoy that with my advocacy because I like poking. I like poking because I want you to think differently. And I will tell you the most, like similar, some of these things are kind of taboo, right? Oh, don\u2019t talk about mental illness in the work setting and blah blah blah. I do the opposite. I go straight at it hard. The more, the more raw that I am, the more pokey that I am, the more successful that I have become with my advocacy and with momentum. And there\u2019s not been one thing that I have done in this outside world of being in remission of depression and talking about it and being very open about it and being very raw, being very real, that has been negative in the slightest bit. It\u2019s been nothing but positive.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>A bonus life. I love that phrase and that thought. Does it show up with your family? Do you feel like you\u2019re living a bonus life with your kids and your wife?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>A hundred percent. I owe everything to them. I owe everything to my wife, you know, she\u2019s just a rock, the most amazing person, you know, the only person that these horrific maniacal diseases are, are, are worse for than the person suffering is the caretaker, caregiver, and that was my wife. And so to be able to see the hell that she went through while watching the person that she loves, who I know I\u2019m a good father, a good provider, a good husband, just deteriorate. And all those things are on her now. And she\u2019s her, her, her bandwidth is zero, and, you know, society is not helping her. Society is judging her too. And it\u2019s horrific. And so to be able to, to be able to see, you know, her in the scenario that we\u2019re in now, which is, we\u2019re out of it, you know, we\u2019re out of it. She\u2019s still cautious. It\u2019s been two years. She\u2019s still cautious. I\u2019m still cautious. I\u2019m always afraid, you know? Use your cancer remission. You know, I\u2019m in remission, but I still gotta get checked and make sure it doesn\u2019t come back, you know? So we always will live with that fear, but yeah, I mean, just, just the the, the standard, the typical embrace. The hugs are different. The watching a show together is different. The being around the kids is different.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>You know, my kids, it\u2019s all they knew, right? They knew I\u2019m a good dad. They knew they got to see me healthy dad prior, and they also had to see sick dad, and they knew that it wasn\u2019t me, they knew it was the disease, they truly did, you know, and and I talked to him about it all the time of, \u201cGuys, how did this impact you?\u201d And they\u2019re like, \u201cIt\u2019s all we knew. It was our life and it\u2019s great to have you back.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so to come out of this on the other side and be able to have just genuinely enjoy your time together and have conversations and be able to throw a football with them again, you know, be able to take my daughter, she\u2019s turning 16, we\u2019re going over Christmas. I\u2019m taking her on a dad-daughter trip to San Francisco and we\u2019re gonna drive down the coast to L.A. Like, do you know how beautiful that is? I mean, I, it\u2019s just stunning that I can do that now and enjoy every single moment, you know? Including the, every single minute in that car ride down and the laughter and the music. I couldn\u2019t do that before. Now I, I can experience joy in a healthy way and enjoy it tremendously, and grow very important relationships in my life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah, yeah, it does seem like just a qualitatively different thing to feel that way versus the absence of something awful. Yeah, yeah. Are you taking your daughter to where you used to live?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>When the kids turned five years old, and my wife and I were like, let\u2019s take them on a trip, like each individually, like mom, dad, kid trip. It\u2019s just a fun age, you know, he turned five and my my middle guy, I\u2019ll give an example, is like, I wanna go to New York City, and so we went to New York City and he\u2019s five years old out on, I still remember Park Avenue and 37th Street, holding his hand up, hailing a cab. You know, we\u2019re doing all the, you know, it\u2019s just was fun, right? It\u2019s like one of those moments where like they really can experience life and understand it and do some cool stuff.\u00a0And so we just came up with this. My daughter\u2019s turning 16, and so my wife and I are like, let\u2019s do something like that. Like, let\u2019s give them another opportunity. And I happen to be extremely lucky, cause it works out perfectly for me to be able to take her. So we\u2019re just doing a solo trip. And so she could pick anywhere in the world, literally, we\u2019re like, where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And it really makes you realize how nostalgic people are for their origins, and she was born and raised out in San Francisco. She left when she was four, but it\u2019s still part of her identity. And so the fact that she picked going to San Francisco and driving down the coast and stopping at Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay and Carmel and, you know, hitting, hitting L.A. It\u2019s pretty cool, you know? And so that\u2019s, that\u2019s, that\u2019s really what drove it is, you know, I think let\u2019s get back to my, my hometown and let\u2019s smile and see some beauty and make some great memories.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so, you know, my big thing with my kids is I always try to go to a high level in regards to what am I trying to achieve. And, you know, parenting is, is not easy.\u00a0It\u2019s, it\u2019s, I always say you want to hug them 10 times a day and punch them 10 times a day, right? There\u2019s, there\u2019s ups and downs and it\u2019s, it\u2019s overall amazing. But, you know, being able to get your kids out of the house, like my focus is always on, you know, if you can have, you know, if you can be a good, independent person and you can be confident, I did my part and, you know, I\u2019m very, very fortunate that, you know, my daughter is right there. And, you know, being able to help guide that and being able to play a part in making that happen is, is really, really fun for me. And that\u2019s what motivates me as a parent.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Yeah, that makes perfect sense, seeing them kind of launch in their own lives and, and knowing you did what you needed to do, and now they\u2019re going to go off on their own adventures.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> If you hit those two qualities, all the other ones come. That\u2019s why you gotta start high. Everything else will happen.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Shifting a little bit to the research, I wonder if you\u2019re still involved in the research project at all, and if so, what that looks like.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>So here\u2019s a human behavior thing that I find fascinating is we had to do two times a day, we had to commit to a journal, a video journal. We had to do eight minutes of brain scans.\u00a0Essentially they would analyze my brain waves. We had to do multiple, multiple choice questions on our, on our feelings. We had to do that twice a day, so it was a commitment and, and that was something that was not a problem.\u00a0Let\u2019s go. Like, this is what I gotta do for this, there\u2019s a lot of, a lot of to do\u2019s. We had to do our part. And at about six months, that turned into once a day.\u00a0And then a couple of months later, it was once a week. And so I\u2019m at that phase now where it\u2019s, it\u2019s once a week. But, but here\u2019s the challenge. The challenge is, it\u2019s harder to do once per week than it is to do twice a day every day. How wild is that, right? And so that\u2019s my challenge is like, I screw up and don\u2019t make my deadlines a lot. And so it\u2019s, you know, it\u2019s something that\u2019s always in the back of my head. And so the short answer is, is, yeah, I\u2019ll be connected to these guys for an extremely long time, and it\u2019s amazing. At some point I\u2019ll be stopping the kind of video journal and the brain activity, but I still meet with the psychiatrists on a quarterly basis, and it\u2019s more of a check-in. They\u2019re still fully available to me when I email. The humanity that this group has provided me is, is exceptional. And they\u2019re in my corner. You know, at some point I\u2019m gonna need to change. I have the R plus S Medtronic investigational device in my chest. That\u2019s the pacemaker, and they have a new commercial grade of available device that I will have to get into my chest. So they\u2019ll basically cut me open and swap that out. It\u2019s a battery. They say pacemaker, but it\u2019s a battery. That\u2019s how I look at it. So I\u2019ll get the newest and greatest battery in there, and that\u2019s also something that will be included as part of the trial. I know Medtronic has provided those to them as part of this clinical trial.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>When you go through severe depression, serious mental illness in this country which is apparently the best country on the planet which I highly, highly, highly contest based off of going through this journey, and then you walk into a clinical trial environment like I did, I can\u2019t begin to tell you the difference, like how absolutely different they are, and how broken our mental health system is in this country. I had physicians looking at me in the eye. I had them telling me that they want to help me, that they know something\u2019s wrong with me, that they believe me, that they can fix me. I\u2019m saved for sure by this medical technology in my brain, a hundred percent. But it\u2019s not just that. It\u2019s definitely that, but it\u2019s also their humanity. It\u2019s their empathy. It\u2019s how they talk to me. It\u2019s how they believe me. That is absolutely part of this, and that\u2019s where it needs to be all the time, especially with a disease, like with the, the diseases within serious mental illness. That\u2019s all we\u2019re dealing with is broken minds. So to be able to help, help a broken mind by being kind, costs no money. Looking at somebody in the eye costs zero money, nothing. You don\u2019t need millions of dollars of consultants to fix this problem. You need to create an environment that can get people into the healthcare system sooner. And you need to get the people who are in there. Guess what? When you\u2019re getting somebody a year into living through hell versus 10 years, again, I have no validation for this, but it\u2019s a pretty logical assumption to think, it\u2019d be a hell of a lot easier to fix that after a year rather than 10 years.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Yeah, and it hits home when you talk about kind of the rehab portion of your brain, too. Like if you\u2019re trying to change after a decade of these patterns that you\u2019ve adapted to and learned to live with versus a year of that, that rehab portion\u2019s gonna be a lot easier too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Absolutely, one hundred percent. And I, I didn\u2019t understand the significance of the rehab portion, and that\u2019s something for sure that I\u2019ve taken out of this. And my initial thought was, dude, I\u2019m good. I don\u2019t feel this disease all over my body and my mind isn\u2019t warped with constant suicidal ideation. That was naive of me, because I got to understand that it is an absolute journey. I need to continue to put the work in. I need to continue to not get super angry with certain situations before that would make me angry, that would put me right into a recurrence. And so I need to sit back and you know, not let certain situations bug me like they would as much as they typically do, right? I need to be very cognizant of my mood to keep it as neutral as possible to avoid any major ups or major downs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>You told me a while back you\u2019re still crabby. You were crabby, you\u2019re still crabby. Do you still feel crabby now?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>You know, irritability was probably the one characteristic that stayed similar. And so my, my joke about it, but it\u2019s probably true, is, you know, I\u2019m just like I guess certain aspects of my life, I\u2019m the cranky old dude, right? Like it just happens throughout life. You\u2019re tired, you\u2019re exhausted, you\u2019re going, being pulled in a million directions and you\u2019re parenting and then things don\u2019t stop. So yes, I do get irritable still, but you know, that\u2019s called being a human being. I\u2019m not anywhere near perfect, but in general, my smiles are back more and I feel, I feel really good. Am I perfect? Nope. This, this, this, this surgery does not, does not cure life problems, but it sure, it sure eliminates and destroys a horrific disease that\u2019s in your body.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> So when I visited your house, there were some jokes about hiding your charger and changing your settings, and I wonder if you all still joke about things that that are kind of in this realm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Yeah, you have to add humility and humor and laughter to all of this. And, you know, yes, a hundred percent. And, you know, a simple way to think of that, my, my wife saying after the first week of me being home, her line to the doctor was, \u201cIs there any chance we can turn the volume down on this a little bit?\u201d Because I\u2019m back. I\u2019m back with a force. And, you know, it\u2019s that, they say that with a big smile on their face. And you know, I, I, I joke around with my, you know, family, my daughter. I\u2019m like, so what is it like when we weren\u2019t here this weekend, you know, myself and my boy, we were at like a hockey tournament, so it\u2019s like, \u201cIt\u2019s a lot quieter.\u201d So like, that stuff\u2019s awesome, you know? Like, I mean, it\u2019s just, it\u2019s such a prime example of like what this disease does, this brain disease, that\u2019s what this is, you know. It just mutes you. It, it takes you away from everybody. It takes your core essence away. And so being able to have that back is great. And so my line to them all the time when they\u2019re busting my chops and, and, and having fun with this, which they should, is, you chose me. You chose me. It\u2019s not on me, dude. You picked me, guys. The kids didn\u2019t really. They\u2019re kind of forced in this scenario, but the wife did.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> She totally did. I love it. Very true. You\u2019ve done so much evocative explaining of what this felt like and what this disease has done to you, how it\u2019s affected you, how it\u2019s affected your family. I wonder if there\u2019s a way to explain to someone who\u2019s not felt this firsthand and may not have a family member or a loved one who\u2019s felt this. What would you say to them, to kind of sum up what this disease is like?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> To those folks who have no understanding of this, I will say a couple things. There\u2019s not many of you. You know, when I start talking about this publicly and speaking, there\u2019s always somebody. Either it\u2019s a friend or a family or them. There is a connection to somebody with lived experience, so they\u2019ve gotten to see firsthand most of the time what this looks like. And for those who haven\u2019t, awesome. I\u2019m so happy that you have not been exposed to it, and it\u2019s the most simplistic thing in the world. The symptoms of this disease, the brain disease of severe depression, the symptoms are a desire to die and a consumption of your body with hell. It\u2019s toxicity burning within your body. That\u2019s the symptom. The symptom of another neurological disease, Parkinson\u2019s, is shaking, right? It\u2019s tremors. You know, look at epilepsy. It\u2019s seizures, right? The symptoms are different, based off of every disease. The fact that society doesn\u2019t understand and questions and judges folks with severe depression is what makes them die, and the unfortunate portion of this is the major symptom of these are torture. And so that\u2019s what we have to understand, is that the people who have this horrific disease didn\u2019t ask for it, at all. And so being able to surround them with love and kindness like you do with every other disease, and let them know that you love them and you care for them, it\u2019s life-saving.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>If we could shift to kind of the future now, I, I wonder if there\u2019s something you picture for yourself, you know, in, in the next year, in 2035? Where do you want to be? In 2050, where do you want to be? What\u2019s, what\u2019s on your long-term horizon?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>I\u2019ve have a colleague of mine that has been, said something very cool to me that sums up where I am right now with my patient advocacy. I actually call it more activism, because I do wanna poke and I do want to make people feel uncomfortable, so that they can change their behavior, is you have a lot of momentum right now. And I like that I have a lot of momentum. I unfortunately, am not listening to Dr. Helen Mayberg, who after the trial said, \u201cYou need to take it easy. You need to not do too much.\u201d Well, I\u2019m not listening to her cause I\u2019m doing a lot, and I\u2019m, but here\u2019s the fun reason why, is, I am extremely motivated. I\u2019m extremely passionate for this. There is a massive, massive, massive problem with a very simple solution, and I\u2019m going to be in your face until the day that I die poking you and letting you know that you\u2019re absolutely wrong and that, you know, we have the most simplistic way that we can possibly fix this, the complete moronic world that we\u2019re in right now, which is simply by showing empathy and being kind to people with mental illness. Then we save, we save lives. We save suffering. Like, let\u2019s go. I\u2019m all about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And so when I look at 10 years from now, you know, in the last year, I have been so fortunate to be in the world that I\u2019ve been in. I mean, being a part of your <em>Science News<\/em> piece, I was able to speak in the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine. I was able to participate in a congressional briefing for the neuroscience caucus in April. I\u2019ve been able to, you know, lead multiple academics, physician conventions and sessions. I mean, every opportunity I get, I just smile, and I just say, \u201cLet\u2019s go.\u201d\u00a0You know, phenomenal opportunity for more exposure, for more places to get the, the message out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So my long, my aunt always says to make a long story endless, to make a long answer endless, I will, I want to poke and prod and be at the point where people are like, \u201cThis dude, this dude, this dude is all in, like, all in.\u201d And so my Pulverize the Stigma initiative I have that I\u2019ve created, this is just my personal brand. I got it tattooed on me, right? Like I am officially all in on this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Before we end, I wanna ask how Barbara is doing, how your kids are doing. What\u2019s the update with everybody?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Kids are cruising. We got 6th grade, 8th grade, 10th grade, all so different, all so fun to figure out what makes, makes each one of them tick and support those passions and create those, you know, good values that we\u2019re trying to do as a family. And you know, my wife is, she\u2019s just a rock. So my, my world is is hectic and crazy and it\u2019s kind of chess pieces putting around everywhere to make things work, and it\u2019s, and it\u2019s really going well. And so to still have her be this rock of the family, which she is.\u00a0I mean, it\u2019s not fair, moms and, moms get a lot put on them, you know, for, for the houses and the families. It\u2019s just true. I mean, it\u2019s just the reality, and it\u2019s not right, and we\u2019re doing everything we can to, to, to pull our weight and make a, make a bigger impact on this family, but my God, she is just the strongest person I know. She puts everybody else before her and, you know she\u2019s thriving right now at work. She\u2019s about to start a new job, which is something extremely excited for, at a new great company, and it\u2019s fun to see her smile and laugh. And you know, she had a day home from work yesterday, an unplanned day home from work, and you know, to be able to see her sitting on the couch drinking coffee watching the Today Show, is, it\u2019s like, doesn\u2019t happen. And so to be able to see her kind of being able to relax for a hot second is amazing and I value those moments tremendously.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> This bonus life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Exactly, yeah. And being able to be home, and so her new job actually provides her an extra day off a week, which is, if anybody deserves it, oh my, it\u2019s her. And I\u2019m very excited that she\u2019ll be able to have some alone time in the house without being pulled in a billion different directions. And that to me is happiness.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>Is there anything else you\u2019d like to add? Anything we haven\u2019t covered that you want to emphasize or highlight for people listening?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon:<\/strong> Show empathy and be kind and save lives. It\u2019s not difficult. We\u2019re not anywhere near where we need to be, but just focus on that. Show empathy, acknowledge when people tell you that they\u2019re suffering, that you are sorry. Treat it like any other condition. I\u2019m extremely sorry you\u2019re going through this. You\u2019re loved. And you proactively be kind to them. You don\u2019t ask them what you need. You come home, like I did one day, and my lawn was mowed by my neighbor. I\u2019ll never forget it, ever. It took him 15 minutes to do this. I\u2019ll never forget it. You know, being able to feel loved when your entire mind is being warped and you\u2019re being judged by society. Being able to have people do kind things for you, you\u2019ll never forget. And so it\u2019s not hard.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders: <\/strong>A beautiful sentiment to end on, just showing up for people we love.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Not hard. It\u2019s all we need to do. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Yeah. <\/p><p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Surround me with those people and we will have a good, a good world and a good life, and that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to do.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> Well, I want to thank you again for not just today, but the, the years now that you have spent with me patiently answering all my questions, indulging the stupid questions, explaining the things that I ask about over and over and over again. I\u2019ve been so grateful for you and your whole family, and everyone who\u2019s who\u2019s kind of held my hand as we try to explore some of these ideas. So thank you very much.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Jon: <\/strong>Well, here\u2019s my thank you to you. Thank you for paying attention to this. Thank you for making it an amazing online series, video series, podcast series to get the, phenomenal platform to get this message out because everybody should be doing this, and the fact that you are is absolutely commendable, and I, I will be a part of this and whatever you need from me for the rest of my life. Call, text, I\u2019m there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Sanders:<\/strong> If you or someone you know is facing a suicidal crisis or emotional distress, call or text the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>This is the Deep End. I\u2019m Laura Sanders. If you liked this podcast, tell your friends. If you really like this podcast, leave us a review. It helps the show a lot. Send us your questions and comments at podcasts@sciencenews.org. The Deep End is a production of Science News. It\u2019s based on original reporting by me, Laura Sanders. This episode was produced by Helen Thompson and mixed by Ella Rowen. Our project manager is Ashley Yeager. Nancy Shute is our editor in chief. Our music is by Blue Dot Sessions. The podcast is made possible in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, the John S. James L. Knight Foundation, and the Burroughs Wellcome Fund, with support from PRX.<\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n<br>\r\n<br><a href=\"https:\/\/www.sciencenews.org\/article\/mental-health-dbs-podcast-depression\">Source link <\/a>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>In this bonus episode of The Deep End, listen to an interview with Jon Nelson. He\u2019ll share how he\u2019s doing these days, now that his depression is gone. You\u2019ll hear about the work still ahead of him, which may be lifelong. And you\u2019ll hear about his plans for the future.\u00a0 Transcript Laura Sanders: This podcast [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":265591,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"tdm_status":"","tdm_grid_status":"","fifu_image_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.sciencenews.org\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/032025_TDE_bonusepisode_feat.jpg?fit=800%2C450&ssl=1","fifu_image_alt":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[606],"tags":[1920,2481,8288,1857,76,138590,21296],"amp_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/265590"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=265590"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/265590\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":265592,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/265590\/revisions\/265592"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/265591"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=265590"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=265590"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/news.talkwithrattan.com\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=265590"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}